Please read: Core and Baking and This Board

[JoJo404]

saf- see my previous post about intelligent, thoughtful, motivated etc etc weight watchers. You are clearly one of those, and I don't think anyone here would argue with me.

It's all about mindfulness and control. Both of thee things I've learned (am learning) with Core- and especially from the people who have contributed to this board and to this discussion in particular.

I think this thread has been enhanced by showing reasoned thinking on both sides of the issue. It's the potential for the lack of reasoning that makes some of us here feel strongly about it.

Hopefully those who are trying Core and taking it all in (mentally and digestively) without THINKING will stop and consider their own role in this process. I think the wonderful thing about Core is that it puts the responsibility on YOU- not on a system that dictates every morsel that goes in your mouth. It only works if you take responsibility for your choices.

Enjoy the heck out of your baked oatmeal. Sounds like you've made a very reasonable and responsible choice to deal with your life.

[Sooz]

I agree with JoJo, I am glad to have access to such intelligent thoughtful people and I enjoy "hearing" everyones opinion on this.

I feel lucky b/c the baked goods aren't appealing to me, I would never eat bread pudding of any kind.

I am a firm believer that anything in excess is bad. And I think that is what we read over on the WW boards "Oh I can eat all the couscous I want b/c it's Core." Well no that is not the spirit of Core, eat some couscous, some veggies and some lean protein until you feel satisfied.

That is what I apply to baked oatmeal. If I can have a reasonable portion of baked oatmeal with some fruit for breakfast that works for me. I like the baked oatmeal and I am not a big oatmeal eater so for me it is a step in the right direction. But gosh if baked oatmeal is going to tempt someone to eat the whole pan, then don't do that. That is why I only buy ice cream on the weekends, I can't have it in the house right now.

[mylikeit]

Saf, I think I'm the first one that brought up brownies in the thread, and I didn't mean to imply that your oatmeal pucks are equivalent to brownies. Sorry about that. I do understand, especially after reading your thoughtful words, the distinction you (and I assume others) are making. I do not in any way want you to feel unwelcome or unsupported in your Core program. For me, it wouldn't work, or it's just that I'm so newly feeling free of the "bread/baked" monster that I'm guarding that freedom carefully. In any case, you have every right to find your path and to walk it joyfully. You won't get any carp from me about it! I'll just be over here doing my own thing, too!

[Lesley1]

So many people have said so many thoughtful things in this thread that I doubt that I have anything to add. Saffie, I admire how articulate you are and your courage to stand up to what may seem like an overwhelming negative response, although I hope you realize that there's no malice in it.

My questionable food is the pancakes made with ground oatmeal, cottage cheese, etc. Pancakes are sort of a baked good and they don't meet Core guidelines as to high volume, but they are not a grab and go food. If pushed, I'd say they are not Core. But since I make them no more than once a month and share them with my husband, i.e. no leftovers, I am treating them as if they were Core and not counting them.

I guess it's my training as a lawyer to take something that isn't and find a way to treat it as if it is. Works for me, anyway.

[simpsoncd75]

Hi,

I just want to thank SAF, and the others, for voicing so eloquently what I had been thinking but hesitant to post. You really said everything so well.

Perhaps I come to this from the perspective that these particular baked goods don't trigger me (unlike - say - baked fries...ugh), but I truly believe that the beauty of the CORE program is the ability to learn moderation. Any of the foods that we've listed could be trigger foods, and it is about knowing one's self and being honest with one's self about what starts the downward spiral of binging.

Thanks to everyone for the discussion (rather than arguing that seems to happen at WPA). It is nice to see that different sides can be expressed without all out war and name calling.

C

[vita77]

I think the keys are common sense and "know thyself."

I generally eat oatmeal for breakfast - 1/2 c cooked with 1 c FF milk.

I can make baked oatmeal. The whole recipe uses 2 cups of uncooked oatmeal, and I eat 1/4 of the pan for a serving. Four breakfasts.

I can grind up the oatmeal and make oatmeal-cottage cheese pancakes. The whole recipe uses 2 cups of uncooked oatmeal. I did this once, and ate ALL EIGHT pancakes - the whole recipe!

So guess what? I allow myself baked oatmeal as an occasional treat, and count it as Core. When I want pancakes, I make real ones and count points. And I NEVER make Core cornbread ... can't handle it ;-).

[sue4dmkj]

Just my own personal oberservation-- before or after core.

When I cook oatmeal-- I use double the amount of water/milk to oats. Sometimes add a few tablespoons of milk before eating.

When I eat cold cereal-- if its about a cup of cold cereal , it's prob 1/2 cup of milk-- maybe a little bit more.

baked oatmeal- I've had it, don't remember what the liquid was- prob same as cold cereal. difference is, I usually had a glass of milk with it.

For me, the oatmeal cake was not a trigger food. So I will have it. My opinion why they want you to have milk with cold cereal--(an old behavior gave me this idea) so you won't eat treat it as a snack.

[Kammi]

Wasn't there a rule when core first came out, that you can't use core foods to make noncore foods?? they even used the example of ff milk, ice cubes, vanilla and splenda to make ice cream. I swear I remember seeing this, and making cornbread and muffins seems like it goes against this rule altogether.

I did read and understand Saf's post, and it made alot of sense to me, but I don't think the way that alot of these recipes are posted on WW site, that people understand that you can't eat all of it and still lose weight. I know kettlecorn isn't core, and I haven't had it since I started, BUT I do believe I could eat it just like I do 94% butter....on the other hand, I have to be really careful with sf/ff pudding, and that is considered core.

Maybe WW needs to address core more, and really make people understand 'mindful eating' and trigger foods...I never really understood it with flex. I know they talked about it, but it never really sunk in, until I started core, and found satisfying foods, that don't trigger uncontrolled eating. That's my worry with baked goods being core, SOME people are going to eat them all up, then blame the program.

[laura281]

If you read the WW articles regarding low energy density, they cite passages from a book called Volumetrics. This book goes into great detail about eating cereal with milk and how it lowers the energy density by doing this. That is why I think that's one of the main reasons WW has you eat cereal with milk. It's not the only reason though.

[keliCAN]

I'm finding info about Core on this site than I haven't found in my Getting Started booklet -- such as I'm learning by reading this thread about baked goods, and why I might need to be leary of them (if I'm reading all this correctly).

I'm in my second week of WW. Will I get more info in the upcoming weeks? There is a ton of stuff on sale at our WW meetings -- is there a book that tells more about Core, its philosophy as well as the rules? It really does help me to understand the whys and wherefors.

Thanks.

[Kippy]

Kel, unfortunately no. WW just likes to hand you the list and far be it from you to ask questions and get clarifications. They don't want you to undertand, they just want you to follow directions.

Most of us came to where we are from a philosophical standpoint because we experimented, we researched, we struggled with and argued the issues for weeks on end amongst ourselves right after Core was introduced. We also wanted to know the why's and wherefore's. The only ones we got were the ones we came up with ourselves. We wanted clarity on the gray areas. Some of us landed in one spot, some in another.

The only way to know where you should be is to experiment and see what works for you, as an individual.

Not even your leader is going to be very much help, because some leaders misinterpret the information they are given, and some have put their own spin on things as well. Like if I were a leader and you asked me about baking, my answer would be NO!. But if Saffie were your leader, she'd give you an entirely different answer. And neither one of those answers are wrong. It's not black and white.

[sarahwww]

Kelican,
WW doesn't have much (ok, anything) about what you were asking for there is a book out that might help. I on amazon). It is supposed to give good info that helps have heard folks talk about "Volumetrics" (Check it out with the "science" of core.

I've waited before wading in on the baking question. I was surprised when it became an issue. WW has been working with overweight folks (esp women) for 40 years now. I cannot believe that they wouldn't "guess" that we would find a way to create baked goods and make them "legal," to use an old WW term. That was one of the original thoughts-- that WW didn't think folks would try that --no sale! If it was part of the program, it should have been stated, plainly, not left up to interpretation. I do think folks have to use common sense, know their trigger foods (after all, listening to your body is a core part of --ummm... Core!) and avoid problem foods. Any way, MHOFWIW ;D

[PoznanPoland]

I have to admit that I found this conversation very interesting. I'm new to the program, living overseas, and have only very limited resources. So reading your comments has been very enlightening as to what the spirit of the program is.

reading SAF's comments and the responses were probably most interesting.

I have to admit, that if you look at the items on the list as to what is core and not, there seem to be a lot more dangerous core approved vices out there than baking oat meal or corn bread... [Niether of which are particularly good alternatives to a high tryglyceride cinnamon roll or a danish. ] And honestly, are not that as calorie dense as the some "food substitue" items that are approved.

Case in point, I've found several threads commenting about the glories of soy and FF cheeses and other approved FF/SF products. If we are honestly tryng to improve our eating habits, just subsituting FF sour cream, puddings, and cheeses for the real thing does nothing.

It seem that even more than the baked goods, these are purely a "get a out jail free card." But somehow the phsycological difficulty of having to forgo these seems to be a sacred cow. Shouldn't they actually be more of a target of our collective angst?

Luckily we don't have many FF products in Poland, so I'm doing this the natural way. Pure and simple, no crutchs. And to me, I'd still consider a whole grain sugarless corn muffin, made with all natural ingredients, full of fiber and natural nutrients is getting me closer to healthy eating patterns more quicky than the "Core" WW recipe I just saw for five cheese spinach quiche with all those chemicals from FF cheese, FF Dressing, and FF Grated Topping...

Or am I missing something still...

[Kippy]

Hi Poz, and Welcome.

I think you also are nailing an additional issue many of us are struggling with. Yes, there are faux "replacements foods" on the list. And some of them aren't all that healthy. SF/FF pudding mix for example. FF dressings are just YUCK (my opinion) and FF cheese is mostly plastic. Soy cheeses are ok (again my opinion) .... no saturated fats, no trans fats.

I think even I, as opinionated and Hardcore as I am, am coming to the realization that while we are heading to the same goal, our paths are different. If the pudding helps somebody stay on Core so that 80% of the time the rest of the intake is healthy, then it's not a bad thing. If the muffins help somebody stay on Core so that the same things happen, it's not a bad thing. If the small personal tweaks people incorporate .... well, you get my drift.

Hah, watch in a coupla years we'll be eating macrobiotic or raw foods.

;D ;D ;D

[pookie]

HELLO POLAND!! I am half Polish, my Dad was born and raised there, along with my 10 aunts and uncles

I am not educated on food ingredients enough to answer your question. But my opinion is as follows:

Whatever is in ff/sf core list items is not as dangerous to me personally as one piece of healthy and real bread, muffin, danish, even core acceptable baked goods. I LOVE that stuff and my comfort zone means nothing when I am around it. I can easily control my intake of ff dairy products!

I am very fortunate in that I can eat some mini bagels every day and not trigger a binge feeling.

I know what you mean, but still, the "fake" stuff on the core list is not as plentiful as all the truly FAKE and refined stuff you can have a lot of on flex.

(thank goodness no flexers are here to yell at me!)

Not sure if you know what I mean, but that's my opinion. In the end, core baked foods and sf/ff puddings are better than skinny cows, baked chips and 100 calorie snack packs